Ep. 121 | Denominations Part 2: Reformation and Discussions on Catholicism | Pickled Chats 10
Hosts: Hunter Hoover & Jesse Turkington
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Summary
Jesse and Hunter discuss the Reformation and the Catholic Church.
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Music created by Chad Hoffman
Artwork created by Anthony Kuenzi
Host’s Bio’s
Hunter grew up in Montana and now serves the Church in Albany Oregon where he works as a youth and young adults pastor. He and his wife Ana stay busy with two kids. Hunter loves studying the Bible and communicating it in a way which encourages further exploration of others. Hunter enjoys listening and making podcasts for others to enjoy.
Jesse Turkington is the executive director of Parable Ministries and has been a Bible teacher for the last 9 years. When Jesse was just finishing high school, he started a little Bible study at his parent’s house. Little did he know, this Bible study would change the direction of his life. He fell in love with the richness of the Bible and he wanted to pursue serious study. About 10 years later, Jesse still carries that passion for the Bible and from this passion was born Parable Ministries - a Bible teaching resource. Jesse believes that the Bible is a life changing book and that it can transform the way we view the world. The Bible presents a Creator God who desires intimate fellowship with us. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Through study and thoughtful meditation, the Bible works to untangle our situational worldview and elevate our hopes and desires - we are encouraged to think on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Jesse is all about this book and he wants to share it with whoever will listen.
Transcript
Intro:
Hey there, welcome to Pickled Parables. This podcast is presented by Parable Ministries as a Bible teaching resource. Thank you for joining us. Pickled Parables is a podcast about taking in and living out the Bible. Here we will study, contemplate and testify to the Bible's incredible teachings and how it leads us to live better lives. To stay up to date with all things parable, follow us on Instagram at parable underscore ministries and visit our website at parableministries.com. We hope today's message finds you well.
Main Topic:
Well, hello everyone.
Welcome back to Pickled Parables, another Pickled Chats.
I'm one of your hosts, Hunter Hoover, and I'm joined by Jesse Turkington.
Jesse, how are you?
Hey, I'm doing well.
Glad to be here, Hunter.
Yeah.
So today we're going to be diving back into our denominations.
This is, I believe, the second of our conversations around denominations within, I'm going to say within the Christian Church, but today is going to be a little different, but I think it's going to be good.
So the way that we've arrived is at the point of listening to this, I believe we have just passed Reformation Day.
It's about a week or so ago, maybe two weeks ago at the point of this episode's release.
And for the listener, if you're like Reformation Day, it's probably like, you probably were like, oh yeah, Halloween, but good Christian boys and girls know that that is Reformation Day.
I'm kidding, take your kids trick-or-treating, or don't.
I'll never tell.
But in light of the Reformation, and in vain of this conversation about denominations, Jesse's been making videos about denominations and just kind of highlighting some key points in pretty quick videos online about denominations.
I was thinking it would be good today to kind of have a conversation on one hand of, well, what is this Reformation thing?
And to do that, because much of the denominational world of Christianity, at least this evangelical, Protestant Christianity umbrella, it kind of kicks off with the Reformation.
And so my purpose is, I'm going to kind of give us a little background to the Reformation and what it is.
And as we go, I think you're going to be like, okay, I kind of see why we're in this area.
So if you have not heard of the Reformation, I'm sorry.
And no, but it is not even outside.
If you leave the scope of Christianity for a minute and you say, you know what?
I want to just talk, like if I were to set the Bible over here for a moment and just talk about thought and reason and culture, if you will, much of our Western thinking and Western thought and Western culture has been influenced by activities around the Reformation.
Like it has significance to people primarily within Christianity.
I mean, truly it is a very significant event in Christianity, but it is also significant to those who may not claim Christianity in how it has impacted Western thought and thinking.
So the Reformation is in many ways, you can tie it to a lot of different like individuals coming out of the 1500s, but one key figure like when you're if you're like I'm gonna talk about the Reformation, you've got to talk about Martin Luther.
Not Martin Luther King, no, Martin Luther.
I got my joke in dad joke accomplished.
But Martin Luther was he grew up in Germany or Austria.
It's all those names are so difficult for me, the German and Austrian, that part of the world, the names are so difficult.
But he began attending college at a pretty young age.
And I think everybody kind of went to college a little bit younger back then.
It's anyway, but he began to attend college in Mansfield.
I believe again, that this is in that Austria, Germany.
I don't know if the map is the same as today.
That's why I'm being like, this is the part of history that I don't know as well.
But he, through these studies, he gained an exposure and kind of a desire to go deeper in his studies and he also began to take Latin.
And so that's going to be incredibly important as we start to talk about his influence.
In time, so he graduated from kind of like that, that more arts background in his schooling and his father always wanted him to study law and, and argument and those type things.
And so he, he enrolled in law school.
Now, I imagine this is much different than law school today, but he enrolled in, in some form of whatever it looked like back then.
To be a lawyer, it was called, well, he purchased, apparently it was a big text that was like super important to them.
It's called the Corpus Juris Canonicae or the Corpus of Canon Law.
So, it's like, it was a thing.
He was super in, except like six weeks in, he said, I've had enough of this.
And he said, I'm actually done going to law school.
And then he went and became a monk.
He entered the monastery as kind of like both a fallback, but also it was a way that you could continue this scholastic life where you would, you know, devote yourself to learning, better yourself through education.
And weirdly, like, there was less paying for it.
You know, I don't think that was his motivation.
But like, as a monk, you have access to these texts that otherwise you wouldn't be able to.
Their books were not as like readily available as we have them now.
Like nowadays, we got them on our phone.
But then, like, you would...
Purchasing a book was difficult.
And that was if it was in the language that you read and wrote in.
And so he entered the monastery in the order of St.
Augustine.
So he's this Augustinian order of monks in Erfurt.
And the Augustinian order, and this is...
They did a split.
There was a little bit of disagreement.
And pretty much, in short, the disagreement was, do we double down and kind of take a more rigid view of how things ought to be and in how we interpret scripture and how we do this monastic life?
Or, do we open ourselves up to some change and allow for new ideas to come and influence our monastic life?
And so, Luther, Martin Luther, was of that first, where he was like, no, no, no, no.
We are the way we are because we are monks and because we have committed ourselves to this, and we need to stick to the truths of what we know.
And so, he was kind of against a lot of these modifications, but while at the monastery, he began to attend the University of Erfurt, where he earned his doctorate and was focusing on theology.
And during this time, so while he's working on that, he was transferred from Erfurt to Wittenberg.
So, that's how Martin Luther comes to be in Wittenberg around 1508, and he is studying there.
And, he, I want to make sure I get this right, because this is where now he's like staged for the stuff.
But while he's there working on this, he's interacting with the church and his studies and scripture, and he would still classify himself as a Catholic.
Like, he is still Catholic.
It is the universal religion where nowadays we make in denominations the distinction maybe between Catholic and Christian.
He was Catholic, because that was the only form of Christian that really was going on.
You had some Greek Orthodox stuff going on, but in the Western world, Catholic was Christian.
And the Pope had made a decree, Pope Julius II had merged a lot of different influences.
And one of the things that they had begun to say was this idea of, purporting this idea of indulgences.
And we're going to get to what that is, because Martin Luther has a lot to say about it.
But the Pope's mind was made up about these things.
And so Luther had this negative impression about the Pope, even before he goes and hammers his 95 theses to the door, which there's debate on whether or not there was a lot of hammering of the door involved, but posted them up.
But he already, because of Pope Julius and his way of issuing these papal decrees, Martin Luther, it rubbed him the wrong way.
Again, remember, he's this Augustinian order where it's like, no, no, we do the things of the scriptures and we do what the things say to us, and we're not just changing and adjusting our monastic life because we want to.
We need to stick to what we believe on this.
And then seemingly on the same foot, you have in his brain the Pope doing the exact opposite, giving these papal authorities and these commissions and saying, well, let's look at this.
And even Martin Luther, it's living, that's like, well, I'm Catholic, but I don't like that.
And so he found that there was this lack of spirituality in the Catholic Church.
And he writes about this and some of you can read, like most of his stuff is available for PDF.
If you, I would be honest with you, shoot straight with you listener, some of it's pretty dry.
And he was very German.
And so a lot of it has been translated.
So keep that in mind.
But in the fall of 1517, Luther's name kind of, this is where it kind of kicks off.
So Johann Tetzel, he was a Dominican.
So you have Augustinian monks.
He was a Dominican monk, different umbrella, but we're in the same house, kind of like denominations today.
But he is a friar who was preaching to the people in his parish and in his area, the idea that while yes, you must believe in Jesus, you can and ought to purchase a letter of indulgence.
And you could do this by giving money to the Catholic Church.
You could do this by rendering service to the Catholic Church, either via military, in some cases where they were in control of that, or through service to the Church.
But you could do something to receive this indulgence that would thus forgive you of so much or some amount or some level of sins.
And if you hear that, and if you hear that as a Christian, you go, you can't buy forgiveness.
Yes.
If you hear that as a Catholic and you say, well, we don't believe that anymore, I don't believe you do.
I think many of you would say that we don't believe that anymore.
But at the time of Martin Luther, this was what was going on.
It was kind of held that you could in some ways manipulate your forgiveness based on your purchasing or rendering service to the church via an indulgence.
And so Luther drafted a set of...
It was supposed to be like this academic conversation, and it was supposed to be like, these are my concerns with what is being taught within the church today.
And the language he uses is not...
We gotta burn it down.
We gotta completely redo this.
The language he uses in the 95 Theses are very like as one trying to fix the thing he loves.
And he's writing from the like, these are concerns that maybe we need to bring up, and I'm gonna stick them on the door, so that way when this guy comes in to preach, he sees them and maybe we can have some dialogue and get some of this sorted out.
So he wrote the 95 Theses, again, he was not in them trying to say, we need to do away with the Pope, we need to do away with the Catholic Church, we need to get rid of all of this.
Rather, he was challenging them based on what he had learned studying the scripture.
It's important to note he knew Latin, and many of the people at the time, they did not have a Bible in their language.
They knew the scripture based off of what they heard the preacher or teacher teach at church.
And so if you're parish, if you're father at your parish, or whoever you're going to for spiritual guidance, is teaching and reading scripture and they're saying it says something and it doesn't, if you now have this other guy show up and say, that's not right and here's why, you can see where it's kind of like, almost like the blind following out.
Well, which do we follow?
And there was a lot of disagreement.
I want to read, so I pulled a couple, but the one that this will give you a heart for his frustration, but this is Thesis 86.
He says, Why does not the Pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest, Crassus, I think that's like a Roman Emperor at some point, build the Basilica of St.
Peter with his own money, rather than the money of poor believers?
Fair point, valid question.
But you can see there, it's not like, hey, why does the Pope exist?
He's rather asking, he's like, why are they generating money off these indulgences to build this building when the Pope's got enough cash to build two or three of them?
And so he, he posts this, and in many ways the Reformation like looks at this 95 Thesis as this is the document that kicked off the Reformation.
His act of doing this was the one where now there was a line drawn between whoever this person Luther is and the Catholic Church.
And I cannot stress, I don't think that was his intention.
His intention, rather, was to highlight some things.
Now I would argue if you start giving 95 problems, it's like, you got a lot of time on your hands.
Like that, that's a lot of, that's a very specific, you've, this is thought out.
But I don't think he was trying to create and do something new.
I think he was trying to reform something, hence the term Reformation.
His biggest concern in, throughout these though, is that idea that a Christian can be saved apart from Jesus Christ.
And at the time, again, that was that they were paying or rendering service to be saved via indulgence.
Luther spoke pretty vehemently against the use of these.
And what was common to a lot of them is most of the Catholic thinking at the time, and I think some of the Catholic thinking today, would say that people are saved by a combination of God's redeeming work in the person of Jesus Christ and our rendering of good service and responding to that.
And so Luther, as he's studying scripture and as he's interacting with his studies and as he's arriving at this conclusion that we as human beings cannot save ourselves, it is only through the work of Jesus Christ.
And that is really the line that he wants to draw is to say, there's no amount of anything that we can do to be saved.
It is only through Jesus Christ alone.
The words he uses are that it is fully and completely a work of divine grace.
And so, that's really the big hubbub that Luther, in writing this, while yeah, he's trying to reform, they read it and it's so theologically like, the implications are so big that I believe they took it as a shots fired, truly.
They were like, oh, one of our own is like trying to create his own religion, I think is how they looked at it.
I don't believe he was trying to.
Based on my understanding of Martin Luther, he was pretty happy to settle down with a good book and do some writing.
I don't think he was looking to lead this charge.
But there was a couple of people that arose after this time to refute him.
It's like they sent out their best guy, go debate him, you got to shut him down.
He's stirring up trouble.
One of these was Kajetan.
This is where the names, I'm lost.
I can do Bible names all day, but you start throwing me like a strange Latin man's name, I'm lost.
But he argued that Luther was denying the church, that he was denying that they have power to distribute indulgences.
And his argument was that the church is able to distribute this indulgence because of the power that Jesus had on the cross.
He gave that to Peter and he extended that power to the Apostles.
And as a result, that trickles down through papal authority, that now they can extend that act of forgiveness via these indulgences.
So that was this guy's argument.
And Luther just, he's like, doubles down.
He's like, no, no, it's faith alone.
It's indispensable of faith.
And there's nothing that we can do to impact our forgiveness of that.
Like, we are incapable.
And so, the second person that comes out is a guy named, I can't find first name, but last name, Ek.
Oh, Johan Ek.
Again, Ek.
And his big charge, and he was a little bit more skilled, and I want to make sure that I get this right, is his concern was that Luther, so the first was that Luther is like undermining the church's power to do these, where this is he's trying to point out that Luther does not hold that the Pope has authority.
He says, you know, Luther denies papal authority, and what's interesting is as these guys kind of debate and argue with Luther, I think it's solidified something in him that's like, you know what, actually, I don't believe that.
Like, I don't believe the Pope should have this authority over scripture.
I don't believe the Pope should have this authority over forgiveness of sins.
And so he was given a chance.
They held a thing.
I used to call it the diet of worms, but then I learned that it's called the diet of verms.
Just a little bit different.
But they held this, like, this hearing.
Yeah, I know.
Where they were essentially trying to bring the charge against Martin Luther.
And it was this formal hearing where they heard all the information, they brought it in, and then they gave Luther a chance.
They're like, we're going to give you a chance to renounce your heresy.
And pretty much not swear fealty or oath to the Catholic Church, but like, that's kind of how it feels.
It's like, denounce what you have taught, and come back over here and join us.
And they said, if you recant, if you say that you were wrong and that this was all and that this is heresy, we'll just forget it all happened.
They told him that the problem of heresy will be removed, and they'll restore him to the Augustinian order, he'll be able to be a leader in that.
And so Luther appears before this, this diet, he's informed about it, and then he's like, I need some more time to think over some of this stuff, and I don't think he did.
But he acknowledges, this is, it's very good, I want to make sure I get this right, he acknowledges that he published this stuff, like he wrote it, he's not denying that, he's not going like, no, that doesn't sound like me, it sounds like another guy.
But then he's like, I need some more time to figure out if I need to say no to it, and then give him time, and then he comes back and he says, no thanks.
And this to me, so people like the 95 Theses, to the door of Wittenberg is like the picture of the Reformation.
But to me, the moment where it went like this was the it, it's going down, is when Martin Luther, he says, absolutely not.
I do not recant, I will not recant, I cannot recant, and line drawn.
If you label me a heretic, that is A-okay by me, because I am convinced that I am following what I have seen and learned in these scriptures, and I believe you are wrong, and so now I'm moving forward.
It's a big line.
He says, he refuses to repudiate his works unless he is convinced of error by scripture or by reason.
And it's a perfect answer because he leaves the Pope out of it.
He's like, you can give me every papal argument in the book, but if you can't give me reason and scripture, I will not recant.
And he says that his conscience was bound by the word of God, which for Christian, if you're listening, if in that you hear like a lot of here, even at parable, like we spend, I would say we spend our time in the Bible.
Like that's why we exist is to make the name of Jesus known.
And the means by which we go about that is by spending as much time as we can studying and sharing and talking about this word of God.
And it's a high view.
We want to have this high view of scripture that Martin Luther is like, I'm convinced this is what's in here and I'm not backing down.
And so, he's excommunicated.
He goes on the run.
He gallivants around.
And then there's a series of people that from there then begin to say, well, wait, wait, wait.
I also, you know, it's like it's the first time that someone was able to challenge this thing.
And now there's all sorts that are like, yeah, no, I've been thinking that for some time.
And then church history gives us the spillout.
And so Martin Luther's, like, this Protestant Reformation is that name comes from this idea that Martin Luther, he is protesting the Catholic Church.
When, if you hear the, if you hear the term Protestant, understand that is what that word is from.
They are protesting the Catholic Church.
And again, it's because he was protesting what the church was teaching at the time.
And it's reformed Reformation because he was trying to reform the Catholic Church via this protest.
And what ended up happening was kind of the greatest spin-off story of all time.
And the rest of, like, what follows from Martin Luther is much of what we will talk about when we discuss denominations in Christianity.
But really this, it was one of the first times where in the West, it was this idea of my education can allow me, like, and this idea of free thinking can truly allow me to challenge literally the biggest religious entity and stand by it.
And if you hear that and you go, man, I'm convinced of that idea.
Thank you.
That is, like, at the heart of the Protestant Reformation.
I would say it's even at the heart of many Christians today, where even in the face of false teaching today, they say, I mean, that's the only means by which if in the times in my life where I've spoken out against false teaching, when I've heard it, it ain't because I've got it figured out.
It's because if I read God's word and that seems inconsistent, that spirit of, no, it's okay to say that this is wrong.
It finds its home in scripture, because there's plenty of scriptures that speak of it.
But that idea in our Western culture, it really is fueled by Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation.
And so it was a little bit longer than I was hoping for a background to Martin Luther, but he did this.
And as a result now, there is this division between the Catholic Church and Protestant Reformed Christianity, which nowadays is often just called Christianity.
And so, Jesse, I want to stop for a moment in case you have like thoughts, questions, feedback about Martin Luther.
I know that was like a fast fly-by.
Lots of names I wish I would add in there, but it's a brief look.
That was a great overview as you were sharing those different like, and this happened and then this happened.
I was thinking back to that book that we were just talking about before we started by Eric Metaxas about Martin Luther.
And as you were sharing that, the pages of the book flipped open for me.
And I was like, oh, yeah, I remember that.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, wow.
I mean, yeah.
And I will also say, I thought it was Diet of Worms as well.
So that is unfortunate.
And I'm so glad that I am aware of that now.
A lot of my learning is through reading.
And a lot of times I get it wrong.
At least, Jesse, at least you learned it here and not in the middle of a Bible, like church history class at school when you're like, mm hmm, say it and the teacher is like, it's Diet of Worms.
And I go, well, why is it spelled that way?
It's spelled the same.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's German.
That's what I was told to say, because it's German.
And it's Diet of Worms.
That is...
I'll be honest, that is one of my fears about being a Bible teacher is a lot of my stuff I've learned is from reading rather than like hearing it.
Yeah.
And I'm terrified.
I'm just going to say something that's not it.
I do it all the time.
The other one that that same Bible, that same professor, he said, so I'm going to get this if I get this twisted and he ever hears it, I'm I'm I'm done for.
But it's Augustine is the city in Florida and Augustine is the saint.
Yeah.
Yeah.
People that are like St.
Augustine, it it's Augustine.
I yep.
Anyway, the things that we have drilled into our brains.
So and so trying to transition from this background of like, okay, so that is October 31st is Reformation Day.
It's the day that is recognized as the day where the pow pow pow 95 Theses and kicked this thing off like 250 some odd years ago.
No, no, 500 and some odd years ago, 505, 508, I don't know.
It was 1517, 1517.
So 507 years ago.
That sounds right.
Yeah.
So that day is that's like Reformation Day.
That's why it's called that, did math.
I was told there would be no math.
That's why I went to Bible school.
No.
It makes the genealogies at the beginning interesting.
No.
But it is viewed as like the thing that kicked this off.
And in many ways, it is like the dividing line between Catholics and evangelical Protestant Christians today.
And so kind of what we, when we start talking about denominations is, I think a lot of the easiest ways for us to explore denominations is to speak about how some things that we get similar and there are a lot of things.
That evangelical Protestant Christians get similar to Catholics.
First of all, like they believe in Jesus.
That's a good start.
It's a great thing.
They also believe in much of the same Bible.
I say that because there's corners of Christianity that have a few extra things going on.
Or Catholicism that have a few extra things going on.
But an even better way to like really hone in on denominations is sometimes to look at how we differ.
In finding those differences, I think we're going to find our way back to the feelings of Martin Luther very much so.
So, Jesse, do you want me to kind of like go through some of these?
Or do you have some notes to share on differences?
Just to start us off, I would like to just begin with the Catholic Church and Christianity Protestantism, the denomination conversation in Catholicism and Greek Orthodox.
There is not an officially accepted view of you can be a Baptist and also be saved.
It's Catholicism is the way to Christ or Orthodox is the way to Christ.
So I say that because I think I'm a non-denominationalist.
Non-denom.
I don't know what else to say I am.
Denominationally homeless.
I come from the point, yeah, I come from the point of if you agree on these absolutes, which involve Jesus being Christ, he died for your sins and he rose back from the dead, then we can have a great conversation together, maybe even Christian fellowship together.
But that is something that was made clear to me as I was doing my research and talking with other people, specifically Catholics, is that that's not a two-way street.
That's just kind of a dead end there.
Yep, absolutely.
I have found that to be true as well.
I think, I'll go ahead and stick my neck out on this one.
I think you also can find that in very hyper reformed corners of Christianity, wherein they would say if you don't affirm these beliefs about these doctrines of Christian faith, then they begin to question your salvation.
I only share that to say, yes, that is a feature of many Catholics, but we are also the evangelical Protestant Christianity.
We have that too, but I would agree.
I find myself regularly saying, I tell people, I'm sure there are many Catholic people who are like, yes, I'm Catholic, and either A, they're culturally Catholic, because I want to note, we're not talking about you cultural Catholics.
I love you, we're not talking about you.
We're talking about religious Catholics, like people who they're practicing Catholics, that is where we're the umbrella.
And for them, I find myself regularly saying, I think there's plenty of people in the Catholic Church who they believe in Jesus, and they've put their faith in him for the forgiveness of sins.
And they're so like, for lack of a better way of saying it, they're kind of surface level in the rest of the Catholic theology, that they probably are like legitimately saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
And I'm like, yeah, like you said, there's Christian fellowship in that.
The problem that I find is that when then they say, oh, are you Catholic?
And I say, no, I'm not.
It's like, oh, well, why not?
And when I begin to list things, which we're going to get into, that's when they're like, well, that's not what I believe.
And I go, then I don't know if you're Catholic, my friend.
Like, here we are.
So yes, they're very exclusionary, I think, is to summarize, and I'll quit yapping and let you continue.
Oh, no, that's...
We can go to your list that you had.
Oh, yeah.
Well, so...
And we can...
I'm sure if you have like...
So the first that I...
Is...
Is...
The role of the pope.
That's a very Catholic...
Like, that's not a Christian view.
And you can see this come up in Luther's...
Like he's concerned with the influence the pope has.
And specifically, the office of pope as having some sort of sway in religious life.
So pretty much how this like...
I'm gonna simplify this and...
If the pope decrees something, if he says...
And I don't know if he has to hold a formal, but if he gives a papal decree, which he's only supposed to do after he has prayed and done the things that a person seeks God.
But again, he's the pope, so like here we are.
We're taking his word that he did that.
Or she.
That's another fun feature of the pope nowadays.
But if the pope gives a decree and they say, OK, this is my decree and they list it, it is considered as.
It is considered scripture, like they have created new scripture, as in the Catholic people are expected to follow the papal decrees as much as they are expected to follow the words of God in the scriptures.
And that for me is a no, that's a no deal.
That's a no dice.
I love my pastor here at our church.
I don't do anything he says because he said it.
Like, I simply do not.
For that matter, like in my scope, listener, if you hear us here at Parable, teach.
Don't do the stuff we tell you because we're teaching it.
That ought never be why you do it.
You ought to do it because what has been taught is hopefully and prayerfully in line with what God has said in his word.
And so papal authority works real well when what the pope is saying is in line with God's word.
But it's when we start to not that in the situation like Martin Luther, where they were saying, you can kind of pay for extra forgiveness, Luther was like, no, book chapter verse, my friend.
But there's been modern like papal decrees, not the least of which is, and I don't know if it's our current pope, but there was this notion that was essentially universalism, which was that you could, all people through the processes of purgatory, which is another we're going to get to, but the process of purgatory and repentance and the goodness of God, all people can be saved.
And the implication then is like, you're only facing some of those after you've died, and this decree was one vague, which is never good when we're starting to talk about the test of a prophet.
But number two is, it seemed to suggest that a person could retroactively be saved after they have died, whether or not they have discovered, given their-
Oh, like in purgatory.
In purgatory, or, so they, I mean, my understanding of purgatory is, everybody goes, even if you are Catholic.
Like, doesn't really matter.
Now, how long you spend there depends on how good of, you know, a Catholic you were.
And so, and so a lot of these like things like purgatory and we're going to, we can talk about that more if we want, but they all come back to the trouble of what happens when we allow a human man, the Pope, and I mean no disrespect when I say that.
There's, there's good human people on this planet that I value their input.
I value their perspective, and I value them usually because they're pointing me back to God's Word and what God has said.
The Pope unfortunately doesn't always do that.
I wish he did.
It would drastically simplify this.
But because there have been points in history where the Pope will, papal decree has deviated from God's Word, then the Catholic Church says, well, yes, but it's for today.
It's for now.
This is something given for today.
The implication of that being is that God's Word is time bound and it is not a timeless truth.
Like that is my...
They would never say that, I don't think.
I don't think you'd find a Catholic person that would say that.
But that is my reading the implication there.
And so, you can see where Luther had this high view of scripture.
The Catholic Church, though they...
I think they want to have a high view of scripture because of things like papal authority, it necessitates that it...
I mean, you begin to drag that back down.
Where now it's like, well, the Pope and the Bible...
And that to me is the biggest...
I mean, if you have a Catholic person and if you're Catholic and you're hearing this...
And I also would love to hear from you.
If you're like, actually, you got this twisted.
I would love to hear that.
Please set me straight.
But my understanding on this is...
Like, you can't be Catholic and not affirm that.
Like, if you're Catholic, you affirm that the Pope has that authority.
And so, for me, when I say I am not Catholic, that's what I mean.
I don't affirm that.
I believe the Pope is a human man just as much as Jesse and I are.
And his only authority, whatever that may be, is completely bound to his handling of the Word of God.
Like, and when a Pope fails to handle the Word of God well, I make fun of them a little bit and say, I'm not listening to a word you say.
And the handful of times in history, because there have been Popes who've, I think, done a better job than others of that, I go, yeah, that's, I get it.
I wish we hadn't have got off base 500 years ago at one point, but here we are.
The other pillar, so the papal authority, the other thing is they point to church tradition.
And so this is where they have traditions that have come up in church history that they would point to those and say these are necessities or they are of value for Christian practice as much as, and can lead to an impact your forgiveness and salvation.
So they would say, and Martin Luther, when he, a lot of out of the Reformation, you know, John Calvin pops on the scene, and he is, he had all of his solas, his sola.
And one of his solas was sola scriptura.
That is like scripture alone is the basis for our faith, where the response to that in Roman Catholicism would be that it's scripture and tradition.
And this is one of those moments where I actually really like tradition.
As a Christian, I think it's super valuable.
I think the traditions we have are important.
But I do not look at my Christian tradition and say, my practicing of that is a means by which I can be justified before God.
It's super valuable.
It can teach us so much about our God and his word.
But it's not going to save me.
It just won't.
So related to that is that idea of works based salvation, grace based salvation.
Catholics, whether they would say it or not, the undermining assumption is like, well, we do have some work that we must do to be saved.
Where scripture, Ephesians 2, 8 and 9, for by grace you've been saved through faith, it's not of any works that you can do.
It's only the gift of God.
Like, scripture is full of spots where it's like, you know, all our works are as filthy.
I mean, it goes on and on.
Like the effects of sin in our life necessitate that we need a savior to overcome even those so we might even have the chance to be saved.
And that's like the big theology things that I draw the line in the sand pretty firmly.
And Catholic listener, if you are out there and you're hearing this and you're going, why is he so angry?
I draw that line with any faith that says that I can do anything to be saved.
Like, Buddhism, I'm not going to transcend my way into eternity.
That's not how I...
So I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.
I'm just convinced as I read God's Word that you are wrong.
They also...
The idea of the priesthood that it extends to only the priests, where much of the evangelical Protestant Christianity would say that we share in the priesthood of all believers through the saving work of Jesus Christ and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Like, we can take on this role of ministers for Jesus, wherein, like, I can do things on behalf of God and motivated by a service to God that might be like, oh, that's a religious person's role.
But the trick is, like, I don't have to work at a church or I don't have to be on the payroll by any denomination or I don't have to have signed my name to say, hey, if I'm a person saved by Jesus Christ and in dwelt with the Spirit, I can pray for you.
I can pray to God and say, you know, hey, this person's struggling, I don't need the church or a church father or a priest to do that for me.
Whereas much of the Catholic Church would affirm, well, while we are all saved by Jesus, there are some who have the priesthood by way of the lineage of apostles down through the church history.
And there's plenty more.
I mean, that's like the big functional things that I think separate us.
There's teachings about Mary, I'll be good.
But there's teachings about the veneration of Mary.
Mary was an important figure in the Bible.
But she was not God.
And she should not be treated as God.
Even Jesus did not treat her as God.
Like, and so there's plenty of things.
And to not nitpick and to also give Jesse a chance to respond and share any thoughts.
And because I'm, I'm, I could truly ramble for endless amounts of time about this.
I share these not to swish cheese another person's theology.
I'm not trying to, like, just poke holes so I can, like, peek through and look at the sun through the, and go, ha ha, look at this.
I share this because I am convinced that if you are, if you are relying on your works to be saved, you need to, you need to stop that.
And, and you need to allow Jesus Christ alone to save you.
I, I, I want that of you.
Yeah, it, it's, it's not to, it's not to tease or poke fun or, or even have this superiority.
It's truly, I am convinced as I read the Bible that it's only the work of God that can save us.
The Pope's, he's a neat guy, but his words cannot save you and following the things he says cannot save you.
It's only Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf, like that full stop and all the other stuff.
We can have a conversation about how much we should practice and who we ought to listen to.
But if you're saved by anything but Jesus, I think there's an old pithy saying like the gospel plus anything is like nothing.
I mean, it's still the gospel.
It's pretty good.
But like I understand it.
It removes its power.
Jesse, do you have thoughts?
I'm going to be quiet for a minute because I could truly continue rambling.
I'm in the same similar boat to you.
I'm a Protestant for a reason.
I would like to gently transition our conversation into aspects I really like and appreciate about Catholicism that I don't see or experience in my tradition.
Yeah.
And just make observations about that.
Well, one of the fascinating things, I was talking with my dad about this last night.
One of the fascinating things that I deeply appreciate about a typical church service at a Catholic church is the intentionality in creating reverence in the atmosphere.
It's like an atmospheric reverence.
And I think the extent that I have experienced that in Protestant churches, to be fair, I've been to many churches, but most of them have been non-denom.
I think the extent of that is, please bow your head as we pray.
I think that maybe in like singing a song, we try to get those goosebumps by singing the same bridge a few dozen times to get that emphasis there.
Drop it an octave.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
But I hate to say it, but that feels like it's fabricating an experience where it's like, oh, that sounds good, oh, now I feel good.
And I don't like that.
Now, I've talked with worship, I've talked with plenty of worship leaders and worship pastors about this, and they disagree.
They like that synth in the background as people pray, because it brings that that emotion up and stuff.
I don't like that.
But I really appreciate for within the Catholic Church, I got to go to the St.
Paul Cathedral for Christmas, this last Christmas, and I had never been in a cathedral before.
It was absolutely stunning.
The intentionality and detail was wild, and it was so cool.
They had this choir back above us, up high near the ceiling, and the ceiling is tall.
And when they sang, it was this overwhelming sound coming from behind you, filling the air, filling the large room.
And it was just cool.
It just felt great.
And I truly, like I didn't want to raise my voice beyond a whisper.
I didn't feel like it was appropriate.
And they were so intentional with their service.
Like they had their things that they did, very liturgical, a little sermon there.
And then those altar boys would come in, swing in that incense thing.
It was very structured.
And I'm sure if I grew up in that, I'd become pretty bored.
I'm pretty sure.
Like yeah, I know they're going to come do this thing, do that thing, and then go back to the other thing.
But as an outsider, I guess, coming to that, experiencing that, which was uncommon for me, it was something I really appreciated, was taking a moment to pause, have that deep reverence, kneel down in my row on that little bench thing, and just take a moment to go, Father, you're so big, and have that realization, and then sit back in my pew and let the service go on.
It was a really, really cool thing.
And I don't experience that too much in Protestant churches.
There's a coffee shop in the lobby, though, so that's cool.
No, I'm just kidding.
It's not.
In the Protestant...
Yeah, listener, if you have a coffee shop in the lobby of your church, I guess that's fine.
I would like to see somebody flip the tables on it like Jesus did.
I hope you're surprised.
There it is.
There it is.
I was waiting for it.
Yeah.
Anyway, one other thing, one other thing that I was talking specifically with my dad about this.
Some churches, some Protestant churches, when they do communion, and I know there's a difference between the transubstantiation and all that stuff, Eucharist, but in Protestant churches, when they dole out the communion, they either have people come up to the front to get the bread and the juice or wine, and go back to sit down, or people bring it to you, and then they pass it like an offering plate through your pew.
When people get up to go get communion in these churches, it's very common where the pastor or elder presenting the communion pieces or elements, pardon, will say, if you are a believing Christian, you are more than welcome to join us in this.
If not, we ask you to not.
And what happens when people stand up to go get communion is those who don't want to stay sitting while they like move their legs and everyone shifts by them in the pew and then they walk out.
And it's very noticeable.
I imagine if you're visiting because you're curious about, you know, what's going on with Christianity, I'm curious.
Like, I want to know more.
And to have that experience of being singled out, to sit there and have people walk by you or stare at you, like you become, as my dad said, an island, just sitting there in the pew while people go get communion.
Now, I am for only believers having communion, because communion is really important.
I can imagine someone who is not a Christian, but interested, just going up and getting communion, so they don't have to sit there and everyone look at them.
I can totally, like, because if you're not a Christian, it's just a piece of bread and some juice, and then you go sit down.
It's not a big deal.
And the difference I found when I went to the, that visited that Catholic Church, the, in, for Christmas, they invited everyone up, but they said communion is only for practicing Catholics, but you signal with your hands what you would like.
You put your hands out if you would like to receive the elements, or you cross your arms over your chest to receive a blessing.
And that was a way for everyone to get up and to go, to go up front so no one sat still.
So I went up, put my arms across, received a Latin blessing, a Spiritus Antubus, da da da da.
And then I went back.
You should have taken the communion.
And sat down.
I'm not a Catholic.
But I, oh, see, Jesse, you and I are so, you guys, you and I are so, in this regard, you and I are just, I think fundamentally different, and it's a good thing.
God has made us different.
Do you think it would taste different because it would have had the transubstantiation thing going on there?
I don't believe in that.
So, so no, because I think it's, I think that's fake.
It should.
Like, that's my argument is like, I would probably go for it.
And then because, and then they're like, oh, what church?
I'd be like, oh, no, no, I'm not a Catholic.
Well, you've received it as, right.
But I took communion, and then, you know, but that's, you are much more respectful than I am, Jesse.
That's what I can say.
Well, okay.
Anyhow, I guess what I'm trying to say with all that is I appreciated how they allowed everyone to go up to the front, but they still held to their convictions of communion is still only for believers, but we want you to be involved.
Come up and receive a blessing so that you don't sit there by yourself while everyone walks by you.
That just, it just turns my stomach a little bit in a sense of like you're leaving them out and they.
Right.
You're, it just, I don't like that.
Yeah.
Well, I think there's less pressure to have like, if, and this is one of my criticisms with communion in the evangelical Protestant umbrella is like, if we say that communion is only for people who profess saving faith in Jesus, and then we do things that begin to pressure people to take communion without having done that, it's like, set them up for success.
You know what I mean?
Like, that's why, I mean, and this is a, this is a me thing.
There's, so I work at a church.
There's weeks where I just don't take communion.
I just skip it.
Not because I'm not taking time to remember.
Not because I don't believe in it.
But there's weeks where either I'm distracted of the morning or I am mindful of like, you know, there's some people here that I don't know who they are.
And I don't know, like, and they're not getting up.
I think I'm just going to stay seated too.
Yeah.
And again, that I've gotten some blowback from Christians about like, oh, uni, and I'm like, it doesn't save me.
Like, so actually, it's a remembrance.
And yeah, and this is where I am denominationally homeless, and I find myself that very much when I start to get into those things.
Do one of the other things I wanted to say that I like about Catholicism is it's very uniform.
And what I mean by that is, like, all, I believe, unless they've changed how they do this, but like, all churches are receiving like the same thing.
Like, this is what we're talking about.
Like, and there, or at least in an area, like there's some uniformity to it.
And I like that, not because I do like the way the spirit moves in a pastor to bring a sermon.
I do enjoy that, and I find it convincing.
But I do think that so, like, there's a reason why that the Roman, the Catholic Church, there's a couple of spinoff denominate, but like, it's remained pretty, like, this is the Catholic Church for centuries now, where, I mean, evangelical Protestant Christianity, we are the denomination grenade has gone off.
And it's like, I mean, we've got people dividing on denomination on simple things that is like, stop it.
And so I like that about Catholicism, where it's, they have remained more unified, I think.
I also like a lot of, and it's not so much, I don't know about Western Christianity, but a lot of their liturgy and their, and I think this goes back to what you're saying about our worship in Protestant Christianity, Evangelical Christianity is like, they're okay with like being a little bit sad or being a little bit contemplative at moments.
And I think actually Evangelical Protestant Christianity could do more for that.
Like, it's okay.
You're going to be fine.
You don't have to be happy at this very second.
It's okay to kind of sit and dwell on the liturgy and the sound and just kind of live in that moment.
It's fine.
There's worship in there, too.
Yeah, and there's truly like, I could, there's plenty of ways that we could continue.
But I think that's valuable.
Did you have more for like positives?
I mean, I.
Yeah, I mean, I, I really genuinely enjoy talking with a good, and I'm going to say this, a good Catholic brother, because I, one of my, so when I went to Bible College, one of my instructors was a, it was a missionary to Catholics for a time.
Oh, wow.
And he, I'll be honest, the first thought I had was friendly fire.
Um, what are we, they're, they're, I mean, I understand.
I mean, I, I am passionate about discipling, growing a person up in their faith.
And so if that was the angle you're trying to do with, with Catholicism, of like, hey, let's, let's go to the Word and like, let's look at our conflicting doctrines here and talk about it and like grow together, that's, I love that.
Uh, but if we're talking about missionary work of preaching the name of Christ for the sake of salvation, my brother, there are so many people.
Yeah.
Catholics know the name of Christ.
They claim the name of Christ.
They love the name of Christ.
Let's go to these people who don't know that, who don't have that opportunity.
Anyhow, that was just my, I had a hard time with that instructor, but I, I, I know there's a divide in that within Catholicism, because I am not Catholic, to them, I am not a brother.
But on my side, if I can talk to a Catholic brother, which when I have, we agree on those absolutes that I listed back in the couple of episodes ago, of Jesus is the son of God, he died for my sins, he rose again from the dead, defeating death.
I've been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
He is, that is the triune God.
And all those absolutes, if we can agree on those, brother, let's agree on a few things.
And I appreciate what Catholics bring to Christianity.
I look at the whole, again, this is my non-denomicide talking.
I look at what different branches I'll say, because for the sake of talking about denominations, Catholicism is not a denomination, it's a branch.
They would call themselves, they wouldn't call themselves a denomination.
Yeah, I think they actually distinguish themselves as a separate religion.
Yes, I think so.
Yeah.
But I like looking at the different denominations and observing, what value can I get from that?
Because I'm not willing to become, I'm not willing to accept all those things, but I'm willing to take your, like the virtues and things you teach, and like the good things I can learn from that.
I enjoy those type of conversations.
And Catholicism has several good things that we can, as Protestants, that I think we have intentionally started getting away from, which then just trickled down through the generations to like, no, because it's Catholic.
But I think there's things that we can learn as Protestants that would be helpful to us in our daily walk with the Lord.
Oh, 100%.
Yeah.
Yes.
I would agree, wholeheartedly.
I also, as you were talking about your professor, your teacher, whoever the person was, I do understand where he's coming from.
Like I think this is one of those where maybe you and I, you know, differ in that extent because I find myself, I find myself at times, I get concerned and I guess maybe it's something I ought not be concerned about.
But I get concerned with the salvation of a person that the system of faith seems to also have inside of it ways for you to be saved apart from Jesus.
That's where I get worried.
I'm like, yes, I know you believe Jesus, but like, do you believe something else?
Because I, and I think that's more of a me problem.
Like I just, I'm like, ugh.
I think even Lutheranism gets into that a little bit.
Like they have some things about baptism where that's not even considered under the umbrella of Catholicism.
And I go, I mean, even the Church of Christ, the Church of Christ, for goodness sakes, it says that you have to be baptized to be saved.
And I'm like, no, like that.
Is that your church's denomination, the one you work at?
It's a background.
It is a long ways back.
It was.
And that's one of the things that I don't know if the Christian church denomination, Church of Christ still teaches that.
But I know like 50, 60 years ago, that was part of the gig is like baptism is essential to Christian faith, is how it is worded.
And it's like essential for what purpose?
Like, because, yes, it's essential in demonstrating publicly that you're a follower of this thing in the example of Jesus.
It is not essential to save you.
Like, you know, and so for me, like, I think sometimes I get too granular of, and that's that good old reformed background of, of course, we're getting granular and picking this apart.
But, but no, I think, I think, Jesse, for this, this is, this has been a good listener.
Welcome to the Reformation.
Hopefully you had a great Reformation day.
No, but I hope that as you listen to this, that, you know, our heart for, is not, is not against Catholic people.
If you're a person of Catholic faith, our hearts, our intention is not against you.
Like, we, we love you.
In many cases, you know, there's Christian fellowship with you.
But this is more just us explaining the reason why, at the end of the day, we would say that we're not Catholic when others might.
So, yeah.
Any, anything else for the good of the order, Jesse?
That was, man, without getting into a whole new conversation, yeah, I'll just, I'll just add this as an ending.
We can meditate on it and then come back and talk about it in a couple months.
No.
Yeah.
I find it fascinating where, like, as you mentioned earlier, how uniformed and together the Catholic Church is compared to our Protestantism.
Practically speaking, that's just the leadership.
Like, they have a pope.
They have something, a system in place to keep it that way.
Protestantism got these founding fathers who passed away, intentionally not passing the torch, because they were trying not to be like a pope.
And with that, in every practical sense of that, as the generations go on, Protestantism continues to fracture, because there is no leadership in it.
Now, I know that there's kind of leadership for some denominations, for Baptist, Southern Baptist Convention, the Anglicans and stuff like that.
But in the sense of, they're still fracturing, we're still fracturing.
That heart and attitude of looking at like, I don't think I agree with this, has not only emboldened and grown, but it has manifested in a way where I don't agree with you.
And without leaving room for debate, they leave.
Yep.
And it really hurts my heart, because I love the church.
I love Christ Church, which I consider to be not the non-Trinitarian part of Christianity, but everything else.
And I see value in all the different things.
They emphasize Methodist with like living out a methodology that is representative of what you believe in stuff, valuable stuff there.
But as time has gone on without a leadership, really, we continue to fracture.
And I will say this, just for the sake of meditation, this also leaves room for cults to grow in Christianity, where without that leadership, without the Pope, I'll say that, without the Pope, someone else will come, say something really sweet, and I'll just pull people in, and they become a dominating force.
It happens all the time in Protestant Christianity, cults.
Yeah.
And it's a thing to be aware of.
We don't have a leadership structure beyond local churches, really, depending on your denomination.
So I would say, in your meditation, as we leave this episode, please be careful of who you decide to follow and join a commune with and do all those things.
Make sure that you understand the Bible enough to know they're not twisting it, is what I'll say on that.
But that is a direct result of not having leadership, is what I will say.
The apostles passed away, we had the early church fathers, we got a pope, we disowned the pope, and then we have blown apart, like you said, Hunter, a grenade, and we continue to do that.
And that's just something that is a practical, there's no spiritual, I don't think, really spiritual thing about it.
It's just a practical, there's no leadership.
And so we are just running amok.
100% agree, I was trying to find this, but I was not able to, but it's, I can't remember, but it's like a quote related to, and I want to say it was a quote from a Catholic, this is probably 100 years ago or more, but it was this, in regards to this Reformation and the result, is a, it's the idea of like a Bible in every hand, or is a God in every heart, and it's a new religion for each individual one.
Like it, and while I think that that, it extrapolates, maybe not out that severely, I totally agree, is like we gotta be, and that's why I always come back to that, like the influence of scripture is, is it truly is our test.
I want to read.
Oh, yes.
Okay, perfect.
I was like second guessing myself, Jesse.
I'm like, so listener, we're getting ready to, we're diving into first, second, third, John.
By the time you hear this, you've heard a few episodes.
Towards the end of first John, John says, this is first John four.
He says, beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God.
For many false prophets have gone out into the world.
By this, you know the spirit of God.
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
And every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.
That is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and is now in the world already.
Little children, you're from God, you've overcome them.
For he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
Just, you know, I want to leave with that is like, Jesus is our standard.
And if you as a listener, if you hear what Jesse's saying about, yes, this necessitates that it opens it up to people being ne'er do wells in the name of Jesus, unfortunately.
The way that you can tell is, do they and the things they do and the things they teach and the things they say, does it look like Jesus?
Does it care about the things of Jesus?
And at the end of the day, does it ultimately point you to Jesus?
And if the answer is no, flee.
Get away from it.
So, yeah, we'll leave you with that.
Jesse, thank you.
That's good insight.
Thank you all for being here.
This was a long one.
Sufi, you stuck with us to the end.
Thanks for being here.
Marta is going to outro us.
We appreciate you all.
We love you and we will see you next time.
Bye guys.
See you.
Outro:
Thank you for listening to Pickled Parables. If you enjoyed this message, please rate us, subscribe, and share with your friends. If you're interested in more things like this, check out our secondary podcast called My Dusky Bible. To stay up to date with all things Parable, follow us on Instagram at parable underscore ministries and visit our website at parableministries.com. Parable is a volunteer organization and we would deeply appreciate your prayers. Thank you for joining us today. We'll catch you later.
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