Ep. 106 | God and Sinners Part 2: Saul of Tarsus and Pharaoh of Egypt | Pickled Chats 5
Speaker: Hunter Hoover & Jesse Turkington
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Pickled Parables and more available on all podcasting platforms -
Summary
Jesse and Hunter return to God and sinners for another look at God's goodness and sovereignty in working alongside and through the lives of sinners. Some of these sinners, are changed to newness of life. Others remain unmoved to their own downfall.
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Passages explored: Acts 7:54-60, Exodus 7:14-12:42, Daniel 4:34-37, Deuteronomy 10:12-22
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Music created by Chad Hoffman
Artwork created by Anthony Kuenzi
Speaker’s Bio’s
Hunter grew up in Montana and now serves the Church in Albany Oregon where he works as a youth and young adults pastor. He and his wife Ana stay busy with two kids. Hunter loves studying the Bible and communicating it in a way which encourages further exploration of others. Hunter enjoys listening and making podcasts for others to enjoy.
Jesse Turkington is the executive director of Parable Ministries and has been a Bible teacher since 2014. When Jesse was just finishing high school, he started a little Bible study at his parent’s house. Little did he know, this Bible study would change the direction of his life. He fell in love with the richness of the Bible and he wanted to pursue serious study. About 10 years later, Jesse still carries that passion for the Bible and from this passion was born Parable Ministries - a Bible teaching resource. Jesse believes that the Bible is a life changing book and that it can transform the way we view the world.
Transcript
Intro: Hey there, welcome to Pickled Parables. This podcast is presented by Parable Ministries as a Bible teaching resource. Thank you for joining us. Pickled Parables is a podcast about taking in and living out the Bible. Here we will study, contemplate, and testify to the Bible's incredible teachings and how it leads us to live better lives. To stay up to date with all things parable, follow us on Instagram at parable underscore ministries and visit our website at parableministries.com. We hope today's message finds you well.
Main Topic: Well, all righty, welcome back to Pickled Chats.
This has become a regular thing now.
I'm going to say host.
It feels weird to say host, but this is Hunter Hoover, and I'm joined again by Jesse.
Jesse, how are you?
Hey, Hunter.
I'm doing well.
Hey, listeners.
Glad to be back.
Yeah.
So we're back.
We're going to be continuing our conversation that we started last month, looking at this idea of God and sinners.
And in that, really what we're looking at, the goal of this, and forgive me, I lost my voice a week ago.
So if you're wondering, like, why does Hunter sound like he's choking on like a lint ball?
That's part of it.
The voice is still on its way.
But the idea of this was to look at how God, who is perfect and just and holy and sovereign in these things, these are things that kind of got brought up last time, not only seems to, but seems willing to, and in many cases seems to want to work with and through and on behest or through sinners specifically.
And one of the challenges I think in this is if God's going to work with humans, he's kind of got no choice at this point, but to work with some sinners.
And that said, there's some very, very interesting like dynamics that that are in play.
And it really allows us to explore almost every story in the Bible in some way.
But through these, like specifically, like, why is God working in this way?
So last time we talked about Joseph's brothers.
And it was a lot of looking at how they did this awful thing to their brother.
And even though they did that, and they had negative intentions, like their their initial intention was to kill their brother.
Even though that is the case, God worked through those circumstances and actually used the implications of that to rescue them and the Israelite people in the end.
And then last time we also looked at the person of Jonah, the prophet Jonah, and kind of his both before and after being used by God, his displeasure with the idea that God has something that he wants him to do.
And that it was effective.
That's, I think, one of the biggest things in Jonah is the people he went to and preached destruction or warnings of destruction against, they responded and God relented from that destruction.
And where I think nine times out of ten, we would see a prophet of God say, wait, I preached my message and the people listened and it happened the way God said.
He gets mad about it and throws a hissy fit under a tree.
So that's kind of where we're at.
And so we're going to kind of bring a couple of different sinners this week.
Dirty, rotten, no.
And so, Jesse, I'm going to kind of do you, do you have anything more to add on Joseph and Jonah from last time?
I don't think I have much to add.
You had brought up your bicycle thing.
Oh, yeah.
I think that's valuable as we.
I'll try to remember what I said.
I was kind of flying off the cuff at that point.
That's what I need to get in the conversation.
But I've we ended up ended up talking about momentum, kind of like a bicycle in.
I don't know.
In that scenario, I think of Jacob, one of the patriarchs, who is in a way kind of a super zealous guy, maybe not zealous for the Lord all the times, but zealous for his own interests or something.
He was going wherever he was going, he was going 100 miles per hour.
And the Lord meets him, causes a crash, does a little wrestling match with him, does his whole thing and then sends him off, pointed in a new direction.
And the idea with the bicycle that we were talking about last time, I think, was like we have through the Bible and through excellent teachings of the Bible, a lot of insight on how to honor the Lord right now, just in our daily lives.
And we can use that information, that revelation, whatever you want to call it, to live out a life honoring the Lord.
And so I think what I was trying to encourage last time was do that.
We get really hung up sometimes on like, I don't know if this is like the will of God, I don't know if this is the best thing for me when you're choosing between the good and the best.
Right.
And that's sometimes a crippling or paralyzing idea of like, I don't want to miss the mark of God's will, that little dot, I don't want to miss it.
And that is a, I mean, that's a noble, that's a noble want, like wanting to be in the will of God.
But dear listener, please listen, we know what the will of God is through the Bible.
And we can read it, we can understand it, and we can live it out.
And so I believe that I encouraged you and I, Hunter, and those listening, to just pedal away on that bicycle of life and gain the momentum.
And then when we get to a point where the Lord is going to redirect us, it's a lot easier to turn a bicycle when it's in movement than when it's standing still.
And when the Lord does that, as He will, be prepared to let Him do it, to change with that direction.
So I think that's a summary, or maybe exactly what I said last time, but that's kind of a refresher on what we talked about near the end of that episode.
Yeah, and I think when we start thinking about the will of God, it's challenging when we start talking about God and sinners, because there is this notion that all of this, like the world and how things are, it didn't always used to be plagued by sin.
And so we're not going to go down the rabbit trail of like, how did we get here in God's will, but like God, I had a professor explain like God's will, because like you said, there's this moment like we get stuck and it's like, well, what if what I'm going to do is not what God wants me to do, or it is not the next step.
And he always described it as like, God has a will, but that will may encompass many of the choices that we could make.
And that's kind of like good and the best is like, both of those could be God's will, and would be within God's will as it's revealed in scripture.
But like our task as sinners changed by the work of Jesus is to then look at God's will, and look at the situation, say, well, which one produces the best result?
And as often as we can choose that one, and when we don't, and we choose the one that's good, I think that's okay.
But it's one of those where it's like, but could we have done more?
I think that's really like, to summarize the summarizing.
So we have a couple new sinners for lack of a better way of talking about it, because that's kind of what we're doing with this series.
And so, Jesse, do you want to...
I went first last time.
So do you want to share who's up on your docket?
Who's been on your mind and heart in some ways about what they've been teaching you?
Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about Saul of Tarsus, also known as Paul the Apostle.
Since we just talked about Jonah, I'll make the mention.
Saul of Tarsus is not the same as Jonah trying to flee to Tarshish.
Those are two different places.
But I thought they were the same for a long time.
And so anyhow, I'll just make that distinction.
So Saul of Tarsus is mentioned first and quite a bit, but he's mentioned first in the Book of Acts.
And he becomes an incredible missionary who takes the Gospel all around the Roman Empire.
And he helps establish many different churches.
And he mentors a lot of people.
And we have what, like 13 epistles or letters that are attributed to them in our Bible.
I mean, there's a lot there.
I think there's more.
There's mention of like a letter to places.
And he's like, make sure they pass letters around from different churches.
But he has done a lot to inform kind of the Christians theology a lot.
Churches enjoy taking the Pauline epistles, the letters he wrote and walking through them and studying those because they're accessible.
There's a lot of Greek thinking and that's a lot easier for us here in the West to grapple than Hebrew poetry and narratives and things.
But it's really accessible for us to get into.
And so I think that's one reason why it's a favorite for churches to get into.
Let's see.
Saul first appears in Acts 7.
He's present for the stoning of a man.
The man was named Stephen and he was part of the Way, which is what Christianity was called before.
It was called Christianity.
Stephen had been drugged into court and he gave this incredible speech detailing the history of the Hebrew people.
He gets right to the bottom of it and he's like, you are just like the people who didn't listen to the prophets.
You have your fingers in your ears, you have closed your eyes, and you have killed the Messiah.
And they get really angry and so they stone him.
Saul was present for the stoning and it doesn't say he participated.
He was the one holding everyone's jackets so they could throw stones a little more easy.
But it says that he certainly approved of the stoning.
The stoning of Stephen.
The first time we see Saul is he's present for the stoning of Stephen.
Stephen was this member, I believe he was a deacon of the early church.
It was called, he was a follower of the Way.
That's what Christianity was called before it was called Christianity.
Stephen gave this elegant and detailed account of the Hebrew people's history.
Then he just lights them on fire at the very end with, you guys plug your ears, you close your eyes, and you don't listen to what the prophets have to say.
They get really upset with him, and so they stone Stephen.
It says Saul was there.
It's in Acts 7 verse 58.
Then they cast Stephen out of the city and stoned him, and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.
And it says that Saul approved of this execution in chapter 8 verse 1.
And on that day, there arose a great persecution against the Church in Jerusalem, and many followers of the Way were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.
And we see Saul become very zealous for this.
He is very strong in his beliefs.
He was a Pharisee, he says, in one of his epistles.
And he gets to the point, let me find it here, it's in chapter 9, verse 1, but Saul still breathing threats of murder against the disciples of the Lord.
He went to the high priest and asked for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the way, men or women, he might bring them bound back to Jerusalem.
And as the story goes, he was going to Damascus, when suddenly there is a great flash of light that blinded him, he fell off whatever he was writing, or maybe he was walking, he just fell down, and he hears his name, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?
And he asks, who are you, Lord?
And he's told, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
And then he's given some instructions, go into the city, a man will come find you.
And he finds, Saul finds it when he stands up, he's blind, he can't see.
And then we have this man come, Ananias, and he lays hands on him, and he says, Brother Saul, may you see, and he commissions him, like, the Lord has plans for you to reach the Gentiles.
And it took some convincing for Ananias, because everyone was scared of Saul.
He was the guy rounding up people.
Because he was killing them.
He was killing them.
And so, Saul has this massive conversion of a persecutor of the way to becoming a member of it, and then eventually becoming a leader in it.
And people in this early church had a really hard time with Saul, because they didn't trust him.
He would try to come interact with him.
The apostles didn't want to meet with him.
Nobody really wanted to, like, they thought maybe it's a trap.
And the one guy who brought him and vouched for him was named Barnabas.
And Barnabas vouches for him.
He protects him.
They end up sending Saul away to Tarsus, because not only are the followers of the Way scared of him, but the Sanhedrin find out that their zealous patriot, their comrade is now joining the very people he was persecuting.
And so they want to kill him.
Right.
And so he runs away and hides in Tarsus until Barnabas goes and gets him again, brings him back to a church in Antioch where he helps lead.
And eventually Barnabas and Saul go on missionary trips together.
And Barnabas is just the goat.
Yes.
The goat.
It's a crazy, crazy story because we find as we read the Bible, just so many letters and so many stories about Paul.
Or I guess I should talk about that.
So his name is Saul.
That's his Hebrew name.
He was also a Roman citizen.
He had citizenship.
And his Roman name or his Latin name was Paul.
And there reaches a point in one of his missionary journeys where he just starts to refer to him as Paul.
And from that moment on, he's just called Paul.
And maybe there's different theories on it.
Like maybe he was supposed to be the apostle to the Gentiles.
And so maybe he reverted to, might have used his Roman name to be all things to all people.
That's something he talks about in 1 Corinthians 9, being all things to all people.
So maybe he's trying to use his Latin name to be all things to the Gentiles.
Or maybe it's something where he's trying to give up his righteous works that he talks about in Philippians 3.
I was a Hebrew of Hebrews.
I was of the tribe of Benjamin.
I had all these accolades.
I have all these things that I can use to show that I have earned whatever it is there to earn.
So maybe the two theories is maybe he was trying to be all things to all people, or maybe he was trying to take a step back from the things he thought he deserved.
But all this is to say, we find in one of his epistles, as in 1 Timothy chapter 1, he says in verse 12, I thank him who gave me this strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to this service, though formerly I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, an insolent opponent, that I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
But I received mercy for this reason that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
And so with this acknowledgement that Paul is giving, we kind of see a glimpse into his mind of how he sees the situation.
In some translations it says he's the chief of sinners.
In ESV, which I just read, he says the foremost.
Maybe he thinks that he is the foremost because of what Jesus said to him on the road.
You are persecuting me, the church, you're persecuting me.
And we see hurting the church directly hurts Christ, and that's a correlation that a lot of people like to make there.
Paul was so zealous and he really did go 100 miles per hour in whichever direction he felt was right.
He thought he was right in persecuting the church, in persecuting the way.
And then he finds out that it wasn't.
Through that interaction with Jesus, he turns himself around and he devotes himself and he goes 100 miles in the different direction.
And it's an incredible example.
Paul is a large example just based on his content of someone that the Lord worked with.
Even saying, I'm setting this man apart to work with him.
Even though right then in that moment for poor Ananias who was going to go to that man, Saul, as he was known then, was the man trying to kill Christians.
And so that's one of the ways that God will work.
He'll pull people in.
Calvinists like to call it the irresistible grace of God.
And he'll pull people in.
And there just seems like there's very little you can do about it.
Yeah.
I think one of the things like while you were telling Saul's story and becoming Paul is the idea that this guy was running around, signing off on the killing of Christians, was pretty much showing up on like execution day for these people and seemingly being one of the people that's kind of like nodding along in approval in the audience, in the standards by, the fact that that guy is then seen as not only like a person who now believes because that would be one thing if he's like, oh yeah, he had this encounter with Jesus in any chain and yeah, now Paul's mentioned and he's saved and he's part of the church, but like the fact that he plays such a pivotal and crucial role to so much of the spread of the gospel in the early church is amazing.
One in just the testimony and legitimacy of like Jesus' ability to change a person because like he's like now actively trying to convert people to the thing he used to be trying to kill people for believing.
It's an amazing, and it was public, like people knew him.
I mean, you talked about how like the church, one of their early initial responses is they're kind of freaked out.
They're like, why are you here?
Where's your papers?
Are you here to round us up?
But also all of his like Jewish friends and all of the other people that were similar to him, that man, I bet they hated him.
It's like he's a deserter to them.
And we don't get a lot of conversations about those people, but we can assume that they existed.
Like there's, I find it very, very unlikely that Paul is the only one that was running around doing this.
It's just that scope of the Bible where laser focused in on him because the story is going to be about the work Jesus does through him.
But I just think like, you know, I think like when people share their testimonies, I have kind of a boring testimony.
It's not boring because like Jesus saved me.
But like, and that's not boring.
But like for lack of a better way of saying it, like there's some people whose testimony is a little more flashy.
And the thing that Jesus saved them from is so much more dire and stark and drastic that we cling to those and they stick out in our brain because it's like, man.
And I think a lot of times in our churches today, like we look at people who might have this thing and we'd say, yeah, you know, Jesus has changed you.
But like, we don't know if you should be like leading here.
And it's like, Saul was killing people and I don't know.
It's just the depths of God's forgiveness embodied in that are baffling to me sometimes.
But yeah, and Barnabas the Goat, he's just there to...
Barnabas, what a good...
Barnabas has his own story in Acts where he really takes in John Mark, this kid who abandons them on one of their mission journeys.
And Barnabas and Paul, they have a split.
They eventually split because Saul is like, we can't bring this kid back with us.
He's going to abandon us again.
Yeah.
And Barnabas is like, no, we can't give up on this guy.
We have to involve him.
And they end up splitting.
And that's referred to a lot for when there's splits in fellowship between people, like between Christians or churches, where it's like referred to as, yeah, it's like Barnabas and Saul just had a split of difference of opinions, really.
And that's used as a term a lot.
But Barnabas, I mean, John Mark, do we think that he's the guy who wrote the Gospel of Mark?
So I was always told that, how do I put this, that it was John Mark, but he got a lot of his material from Peter.
I don't know if that's, it's one of those things where it's like to be in the room.
But yeah, I think that's, I think that's the traditional authorship is like, Peter had the first hand account and as John Mark did ministry, he received these stories from Peter and then like began to put them into writing of like, this is the gospel.
Because I believe Mark's also the earliest gospel or either it or Luke is like viewed as like the earliest gospel written.
And it's really his gospels, not rushed, but it's a lot of like, like, very good point.
We got to get through this.
We got to get to the part where Jesus saves everybody.
But yeah, I think it was John Mark.
I saw Paul is so tough because I think today, especially there's a lot of people that are like, well, I don't like Paul because Paul says things that make me upset and Paul says this, that and the other.
And I want to be like, you know, if you take the bulk of what Paul wrote, like these 13 letters and yeah, he had other people helping him write stuff, whatever.
But like you take these letters and you take the bulk of what he wrote about.
The things that Gaul people are like less than like 2% of these letters.
And it's one of those things where it's like, man, don't baby in the bath water, Paul, because like he's got a lot of really cool things to say about grace.
He's got a lot of really, really cool things like perspectives on how we as Christians relate to the law.
I mean, he's even got like cool stuff to say about the coming of the Lord.
Like he's, I've been working on Thessalonians and he's just going off about Jesus coming back.
And it is like, and sometimes I want to be like, remember, he was like really Jewish.
Like he didn't just shed all of that overnight.
Like he, when he's wrestling in Romans about like the law and justification and the thing I want to do, but I know I like, he's working through a lot of his Jewish background, I think.
And he's like, yeah, you know, these Jewish people, they are chosen by God, but that Jesus is the way and those who believe are grafted into this people of God.
And he's got this like cool olive image object lesson that Tom Amon once blew out of the park because he's like a tree farmer.
But yeah, it's just Paul's cool.
And I would say like if you are a person who has read Paul and you're like, yeah, but what he says this and I don't like that or it makes me uncomfortable.
Just sit with it.
Like keep reading.
Don't get stuck on that verse.
Like it's a whole letter.
Read the whole thing.
And then if you really think that's the crux of what he's trying to say, yeah, I can see like you can be frustrated with him, but he's still right probably.
So anyway, yeah, I love it.
I love in Galatians when Paul and Peter are fighting.
That's like yes, that is money because Paul comes out.
He's like he comes out swinging on Peter.
It's funny.
And it's like, man, I think for a lot of people, Peter was viewed as like maybe a higher class of like, you know, he walked literally walked with Jesus.
Jesus had his like little one on one like you're going to lead my end.
Paul's like, yeah, but you got it wrong here, bud, because you're you got a double standard and you need to cut it out.
And it's like, cool.
Paul's going for it.
Yeah, yeah, he to me, like it bears witness to just the legitimacy of a person being changed by Jesus.
Like he didn't view himself as like a sham.
Like he viewed I can speak to this.
I have just as much salvation and just as much authority to speak to this as a Christian as Peter does.
And then they fight.
No, I want that letter.
I want I want second Galatians where Peter writes him back and says, Hey, tell him where to meet me.
No, I don't want that.
That's that's not true.
I don't know what kind of personality Paul had, but I I wonder if if he was one of those very opinionated fellows.
But but but there's moments where he like is willing to to like go in between two areas.
Like in the in the example of what is it, Timothy?
Was it Timothy where they had just had their council in Jerusalem about how Gentiles did not need to be circumcised?
And and so he finds this young man who had a a a Gentile father.
But and he had not been circumcised, so so Paul does it.
But that was Paul was still going to synagogues at that point to to try to win over the members of the synagogue.
Right.
And so, like, even though the decision, which he was totally for, of like, yes, Gentiles do not need to be circumcised in the area where it could cast some like for for Timothy.
Where he had a Jewish mother and a Gentile father, Paul was not willing to have any like blowback and just like, we're going to make sure that this is going to be OK type of thing.
Right.
I think I think he went forward with that because they didn't make it a matter of like salvation.
You know, in that situation, I think it was truly a matter of like, culturally, is this going to be a barrier for you to to reach and to be effective in this area?
And to a lot of those people, that was like, yeah, like we got to know that you've had some surgery.
So it's a wild dude.
One day, one day, I think we should wait for Michael, but one day we got to sit down and the three of us just got to talk about circumcision.
It's going to be great.
Man, I talk a little bit about it in the Galatian series.
Let's go.
That's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes.
It's a fascinating origin story with Abraham.
Oh, yeah.
It's in the Bible.
I was trying to explain this to my young adults because we were going through like Bible stories and like the weird stories of the Bible.
And we got on the circumcision train and they're like, why does the Bible talk about this so much?
I was like, you know, that's a great question.
But pretty much like the way I put it to them is like when you when like if you're God's people, like the people of God, God has chosen you as a people and he's given you this standard.
And one of those standards is some amount of a sexual standard of like you're you know, you you do not have relations with these people.
And if you do, the idea is that they have now become a part of your people.
Like that's contingent in many cases.
And I just told him, I was like, dude, there's no quicker way to sort that out than like, hey, what's going on?
Like, why does it look like that?
Well, funny, you should ask.
But like we we are we are followers of of the God of Israel.
And this is this is what my people do.
Like you're there's no way that you and like I know there's more like there's a lot of symbology and there's a lot of like what does it signify, but like a truly boots on the ground practical of like why it's like, well, I mean, yeah, oh, we could give ourselves a tattoo on the underside of our whatever.
But like, oh yeah, I covered that up.
Like you're not going to not know that this is who this type of person is.
And I and I think there's a huge sexual ethic in there for the men of Israel because the women of other places would not have known like they like those women do not have a marker necessarily of like, well, are you an Israelite?
Like they've got to be on guard and really thinking about who they are, you know, running around with for lack of a better way of saying it.
But we're getting into weird like sexual ethics and circumcision.
Thanks, Paul.
You just had to talk about it.
No.
Yeah, that's good.
Do you have any more thoughts on Paul?
And then I can kind of move into mine.
I, it's tangentially related, but the tangent is like not a tangent.
It's just we're going to do a weird dot to dot to connect it.
But it'll be good.
I've been brainstorming.
Yeah, go for it.
I think Paul is a fascinating, if nothing else, character in the Bible.
He's a big one.
He gets a lot of screen time.
Yes, he does.
Yeah.
We get to see his flaws.
We get to see moments where he really shines as do most other characters in the Bible.
They get their moments of woe and their moments of good shining moments.
But yeah, what's your dot to dot?
Yeah, so like Saul is this story of like a person who is pretty like against the people of God.
For him, it was the way and his early church and the Christians.
And I wanted to bring Pharaoh, just in Exodus, the Pharaoh who enslaved the Israelite people and the famous story of like not letting God's people go.
And the connection is, is where I think Saul is this person who has animosity towards the people of God, but then at some point is able to, because of God's work, recognize that and respond to it in faith.
And he has changed so much so that we all just call him Paul now.
Pharaoh is the opposite of that story, where my dude had so many chances.
And one of the like specific weird things that I want to like kind of dive in on is this idea of God, God in Pharaoh's heart, because Pharaoh, he was not a nice guy by any stretch of the imagination.
He, you know, so that to do the Cliffs Notes, God's people are trying to, God has told Moses, hey, I'm going to use you to set my people free and lead them out of slavery in Egypt and into the Promised Land.
And when Moses goes back, Pharaoh is like, no, you are absolutely not leaving.
You are my free slave labor.
Like, you are not leaving.
And so then we get the 10 plagues.
And one of the refrains that we get throughout the 10 plagues, so before the first plague, we're told, for each man, this is when they do the miracle of the staffs that turn into serpents, for each man cast down his staff and they became serpents.
But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.
Still, Pharaoh's heart was hardened and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
And so it's like Pharaoh sees this thing.
He's like, okay, my voodoo mama juju witchcraft guys did their thing and made the snakes, which that's a whole other conversation about magic in the Bible.
We'll get there.
But then Aaron's, the point is that the staff that is commissioned by God, because it is the staff of the people that are speaking on behalf of God, it swallows up their staffs.
It's like it is better.
It is going to overcome their staffs.
And Pharaoh sees that and we're told that Pharaoh's heart is hard.
And it's this like image of a person that's like set in their ways in many ways.
Like, no, like my heart is set.
It is fixed.
It is not moving.
But the language there is that just Pharaoh's heart is hard.
And then the goal of the plagues is one, to display the glory of God and his supremacy over the gods of Egypt and this situation with his people.
But two, is to soften Pharaoh's heart the hard way and to get him to go, Oh, you know what, actually, this God is real and this God is powerful and I need to respond to him.
And what we get is 10 plagues in increasing fun-ness, you know, beginning with blood water and ending with the death of people and animals.
And it's sad and it's not good.
And the problem with the whole thing is it was all totally unavoidable or it was all totally avoidable.
Like Pharaoh could have at any point said, you know what, you are right.
Your God is worth you leaving and praising and if this is what you say that God has called you out, I yield to him.
Go in peace.
And at the end of all of these plagues, there is this moment where like at the end of the first plague, the water turned to blood, Pharaoh's heart remained hardened and he would not listen to them.
The second plague, God sends frogs, which yeah, and at the end of it, it says Pharaoh saw that there was a respite.
So he kind of grants them a little bit of reprieve, but then he takes it back and he sees that there is a respite in the frogs and it says that he hardened his heart.
So, at first, Pharaoh's heart is hard, but now it is as if Pharaoh is making choices to make his heart even more hard.
And that's super important, like for me, because like when we think of God using sinners, we're going to get to how God used Pharaoh here in just a second, I promise.
But it's this important thing where like Pharaoh's heart began hard and then Pharaoh chooses things that harden it further.
What's fascinating is by, as time goes on in this, Plague 4, Pharaoh hardens his heart.
Plague 5, the heart of Pharaoh was hardened.
It is now like this recapping, it's now really bad, like it's a state of being with it.
And then the sixth plague is where we read God hardens Pharaoh's heart.
I think this is a hang up for a lot of people because they're like, well, why would God harden Pharaoh's heart?
Like, does not God want Pharaoh to respond?
And I think absolutely God does.
And because if God did not want Pharaoh to try to be able to respond, he would have just went with plague 10 right out of the gate.
And he would have said, you know what?
We're actually going to bring in all 10.
We're not going to give you a chance.
But it's one of these things where, like, as Pharaoh, whose heart is hard, has continually chosen things that harden his heart further, there is this image of now God saying, if this is what you want, Pharaoh, go in peace.
Like, I will allow you to continue to harden your heart and put your people and yourself down this track.
By the seventh plague, you know, there's hail.
It's destroying all the crops, all those fun things.
It says the heart of Pharaoh was hardened.
So it's revisiting.
God hardens it.
But then it's like, let's do a status check.
Yep, still hard hearted.
Plague 10, the Lord hardens Pharaoh's heart again.
It is, you know, you see this like ramp up of like, is he going to get it?
And in spoiler alert, he doesn't get it.
Like, it goes down to where the firstborn son of every household that doesn't spread the Passover lamb's blood is killed.
Fun fact, Pharaoh was not the firstborn because he does not get killed.
Either that or he believed in it enough to went in and he did a Passover lamb for his house just in case.
Those are our two options.
I've always read the story as he didn't believe, but he wasn't the firstborn, which is weird.
What's that guy doing being Pharaoh?
But so he sets him free, but then he chases him out.
And we see this culminate in the armies of Pharaoh being destroyed.
And as a result, the glory of the Lord is on display as God literally alone sets God's people free.
And we get to this thing of like, well, man, why didn't God just like kill Pharaoh and just, you know, and I don't try to play the role of God in the story.
Like that, that's a dangerous game.
But I think it's because God, God was giving Pharaoh opportunities to respond.
And much like Saul, like he's this guy killing him, and he has the like flavor blast vision of brightness out of the sky.
Imagine Saul has that and goes, yeah, but I think I'm going to go kill a few more Christians before I swap this out.
Like at some point, your choices begin to really set you in your way and I really think that's what happened to Pharaoh.
But what's fascinating is God does not look at that and go, I'm done.
He goes, well, I have promised my people, I will set them free.
So if it needs to be a hard-hearted Pharaoh to do it, I'm going to use that to set my people free.
And in many ways, plundered the Egyptians.
They took a lot of livestock with them.
And that's God, again, providing for his people in a context that they don't even know they're even going to need yet.
And it's just this, Pharaoh is this weird character that he's fascinating to me.
And his story is really long with the plagues and the plagues drag on for a long time.
But it's this fascinating character of like, he's this ruler of this other country who does not fear God, he is not a follower of God.
In fact, many times he's scoffing at God.
And a lot of times we're like, man, like, why would God allow or how could that type of person be in charge ever?
And it's this great reminder that God is in control, he's sovereign.
He's sovereign to use wicked rulers as much as he is to use good God fearing rulers.
And it really puts the human condition and the human scope in perspective of God's got a lot more going on on the table than this one thing.
There's a lot going on.
So yeah, I just find Pharaoh's story fascinating.
I find the hardening of Pharaoh's heart fascinating.
It sends my mind in all different directions.
I think of the plagues and their significance for the culture they're in.
I think of interesting similarities to Nebuchadnezzar or Nebuchadnezzar.
I've always gone Nezzar.
Nebuchadnezzar, that's how I spell it.
Oh, my.
He seems to really have some moments he needs help with, but I think he comes around.
Does he end up coming around as...
Nebuchadnezzar?
Yeah, Nebuchadnezzar.
Yeah, Nebuchadnezzar's story is...
I love it because he ends up having to be really stripped of a lot.
But by the end of his story, whether it's a wholehearted salvation, but he does say the name of the Lord be praised.
I think it's in Daniel...
Let me see if I can real quick peek at it.
I think I remember.
It's like Daniel 7.
He goes through a lot of turmoil, I think would be a good word for him.
He ends up eating grass and growing long nails and going a little crazy for a bit because he walked out on his balcony and was like, man, I am just the coolest.
And God was like, no, no, you're not.
And had to humble the man a little bit.
Yeah, so at the end of that, that humiliation and the humbling, like he's described as like a beast at one point.
He's a beastie.
It's Daniel 434.
It says, At the end of the days, I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and I praised and honored him who lives forever.
For his dominion is an everlasting dominion, his kingdom endures from generation to generation, unlike Nebuchadnezzar's.
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven, and among the inhabitants of earth, and none can stay his hand or say to him, What have you done?
At the same time, my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me.
My counselors and my lord sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me.
Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the king of heaven for all his works are right, and his ways are just, and those who walk in pride he is able to humble.
Like, whether or not it's a word of salvation, like, he had an encounter with God, and it changed his heart.
Like, and I think, like, especially when we think of Pharaoh and this hard heart, and then this idea, I think it's Ezekiel, talks about, like, he's going to give them new hearts.
Like, they have these hearts of stone, and he's going to, like, give them new hearts that you can see this, like, this thread of how God changes the hearts of people.
And when I read, like, Pharaoh and the Plagues, every time the next plague, I'm like, please, I mean, I know the story.
That's the frustrating part about the Bible, is, like, you know that, you know they don't get it.
But it's like, can you get it this time?
Like, for me, it would have been after the boils.
Like, I would have said, you know what?
I don't even care if this God is real or not.
Like, I want nothing to do with this nonsense.
It ain't worth it.
Like, the fact that he continued past that, I'm like, my dude has a problem.
Like, yeah.
Man, and to bring it full circle around, was it Moses calling the Israelite people, the first person to mention this idea of them needing to circumcise their own hearts?
Yeah, that sounds right.
That idea of a new heart that is talked about in the prophets and then it's also mentioned in the New Testament, but I just can't remember where it's mentioned there.
But that idea of submitting to the Lord, letting him have it to recreate a type of idea.
Yeah, it's Deuteronomy 10.
It's like one of Moses', like, farewells, 10-12.
It says, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord, which I am commanding you today for your good?
Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth and all that is in it.
Yet the Lord set his heart in love on your fathers, and chose their offspring after them, you above all people, as you are this day.
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.
For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who is not partial and takes no bribe.
He executes justice to the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing.
Love the sojourner, therefore, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.
You shall fear the Lord your God, you shall serve him and hold fast to him, and by his name you shall swear he is your praise, he is your God, who has done for you these great and terrifying things that your eyes have seen.
Your fathers went down to Egypt, seventy persons, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven.
And he told God he didn't know how to talk very good.
That's some fat cap.
I think he lied to God.
Moses is a whole other character of God working with sinners.
Yeah.
Well, Jesse, I had a second one.
I'm not doing it tonight because I promise you, if I get into King Agag, it's going to be 7 o'clock because...
So teaser and don't let me forget, Jesse, in next month, I'm going to tell you about Agag.
This guy is fascinating to me.
Can you give a sentence teaser for the listener?
Yes, I'll give you a sentence teaser.
The sentence teaser is this.
The failings of Joshua and the generation after Moses play out significantly throughout the rest of the people of Israel's lives, culminating in exile wherein they have to come face to face with a king who is the descendant of these people.
And it's like, shoot, how did we mess this up so terribly?
They're like, yeah.
I see you holding yourself control.
I'm going to nerd out if I don't.
So I'll close it down and yeah, we'll go from there.
Thank you all for listening.
I hope you're enjoying this God and Sinners series.
We are enjoying talking about it.
I've enjoyed.
So as always, you'll hear Marta give you the reminders, but you can follow us on all the stuff.
Check out the website.
Jesse's been putting a lot of cool work into the website.
It's looking real good.
And so that's a great place for you to go and check out the stuff we got going on.
But I'll leave Marta to tell you about the rest of it.
Jesse, thanks for joining me again on this.
I enjoy these.
I love these conversations.
But well, anyway, y'all, we thank you guys for being here and we will see you next time.
Love y'all.
Take care.
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